Since some like Tilted Fisher believe very few would would flat call my 4 bet with AA in that spot I found 4 hands in my database in about 5 minutes where it’s happened. These aren’t perfect replications of the previous hand I posted but my point is it’s not that uncommon that AA is flatted pre at the micro stakes.
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22 Responses to “4 more examples….”
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when i first saw ur previous post where u folded KK, i told u that there was no way he was playing AA like that…but i guess its more common than u think. regardless, sick coolers
With regard to the guys playing AA this way….i can find dozens of hands in my database where guys raise 72 offsuit….does that mean it happens a lot? No…those are isolated incidents, and tip your hat to the villina for tarping you with AA when he actually has AA, but most of the time, they don’t, and assuming they always DO have AA in spots like this becuz you’ve seen it before will decimate your bankroll
Time to go see Nick and switch to sng’s? GL Eric.
Lesmurphy, i agree that folding the KK was the wrong play, but in eb didnt post the above hands to prove that players always have AA in spots like that. He was just countering suggestion in previous post that players definitely would have reraised his 4bet, thats it. Pretty sure Eb wouldnt fold KK in that spot or assume opponent has AA in most cases, just had a gut feeling in this particular case and went with his gut.
…and keep in mind that bickel turned 400 into 17k, so he knows what hes doing, though personally i hate his game. think he needs to open it up a bit and move up in stakes, but cant argue against his results, notwithstanding i think he could actually be banking alot more cash in higher stakes
Question . . .
Do you want to become a better poker player, or simply win more money. Normally, I’d say that they are the same, but you seem to be separating them.
A large part of poker, whether tourney, live, heads up, etc is the human factor . . . putting a read on an opponent and taking advantage of it.
First, by massive multi-tabling, you decrease this part of the game. You use programs to try and make up for the difficulty in improving this part of your game.
Now, you’re taking the human equation out of the game even more with this new hyper-multi-tabling.
So the question becomes, if you’re able to make more money this way, do you also believe you’re also becoming a better poker player? If you were on auto-pilot before, playing 10 or more tables, you’re surely on auto-pilot now. Yes, there’s something to be said for the experience of seeing thousands of hands, but are you really learning and improving your game, when you’re simply responding formulaically to the situation?
It seems you’re separating the ability to profit and the ability to become a better all-around player. If you simply want to improve your bank roll, this may be the way to go.
The best players in the world get/got there (IMO) because they learned the human factor (of course this hyper-tabling hasn’t been around all that long).
At what point, are you just turning your game into the same as if you were playing against a computer program? If you’re just assuming that everyone else at the table is playing aggressive, why not just play against an AI that plays all of your opponents as aggressive and get the same experience.
Again, if you’re just looking to get your bank roll swoll, this may be the road. If you’re looking to become a better player, I would say taking out the human factor more and more isn’t the way to the top of the poker mountain.
IMO
well gary the problem is that the games have gotten to the point where you can say they’re solved. The average low stakes grinder knows 90% of what there is to know about poker and any type of improvement in your game is going to take thousands of hours to show it self. Poker is a really simple game and with all the information out there it’s easy to go from a terrible player to a breakevenish player and from there on you have to put in massive amounts of effort to squeeze out a very tiny winrate. Poker is dead and it will get worse unless the legislation is removed
To make my self more clear my point is that EB can’t get all that much better from where he is now
That’s why he should start to learn the other games. Omaha, Omaha H/L, 7 card stud, Stud H/L, and Razz could make him a more complete player. It would also take the monotony out of playing NLHE.
I mean seriously…this is some of the worst “advice” i’ve ever read in my life. Gary…seriously, go find a blog of somebody that plays LIVE poker, and write until your hearts content about the human factor…that doesn’t matter in online poker. You constantly post shit on here about live poker, and reads, and the human factor, when all that added together MAY equate to 2% of online poker.
And FWWG…you can;t be serious about the games being solved right? This is just some giant joke you are setting up right?? When are we going to get the punchline?? A day? A week? The suspense is killing me
Eb…i hope for your sake you don’t even read these comments. Why would you want advice on hands/ your game from donks that don’t even play online poker…and if they do, they fire up 1 sit n go every other week, and either A) Get blinded down to 3 bb’s before having to shove, and then complain about bad beats, or B) have a VPIP of 75% (and probably don’t even know what the fuck VPIP stands for
Murphy out
no I’m not joking. Go open fulltilt and play on the tables the game is as solved as a game with imperfect information can get. The average fish understands what set mining and floating is. 90 % of the table are regs which is a result of multitabling. There are more fish than regs but the regs take up every table and battle it out for 1 fish, it’s a sick grind and it’s not like the regs are bad, they’re slightly exploitable and it is a real long long grind to make anything these days.
In response to the Hand EB Posted.
This could be the different dynamics between six max and Full ring. I see that you are still happy w/play. That is all that really matters. My post was just to challenge you to pick up the poker stove and figure out your equity, and How often you need to be right, to make a profitable call here. I guess if your saying when a villain flats a 4 bet and open donk shoves AI this is AA every time and that is the ONLY hand he can have then well played. I guess we could also go as far to say that every time our 4 bets get flatted this is also AA, we can therefore c/f with kks, as well.
I really hope you didn’t take my comments the wrong way. I was purely hoping to challenge you do the math on what you estimate his range to be, and our equity vs that range. So I guess if you feel the only hand in his range is AA, then there is no math to be done. I just think the our villains ranges are wider then we realize. but then again I play six max so I shouldn’t probably even be commenting.
I will send this link to a friend of mine that coaches full ring, I think he might be able to relate to this hand a little better then I can.
Edit: I guess I should read my original post before responding.
The point about flatting 4 bets with AA,
was I would expect a Reg to flat 4 bets with AA more then Fish.
I wouldn’t expect a reg to open shove a flop w/ an overbet, this is something a fish would do.
Not that People don’t flat 4 bets with AA.
Regardless I don’t play deep very often, and I never play full ring. So i will not dispute w/ you that you shouldn’t go w/your read.
Btw: I like that your playing deep, this is much more difficult requires more skill! This should def give you an edge, in the long run!
F#*% Les . . . is your life soo pitiful that you have nothing better to do than troll this board, pathetically trying to flame people with opinions other than your own?
All you really succeed in doing is showing everyone else what a loser fanboy you are. What are you trying to prove? Do you think EB is going to recognize what a genius you are and ask you to be his best buddy?
Seriously? VPIP? Are we all supposed to be impressed by this?
The purpose of this board is to post OPINIONS. It’s not to compensate for your lack of social skills in the real world by trying to make yourself feel better by posting junior high level flames.
The reason poker isn’t a completely ’solved’ game is the human factor. Period. With the razor thin variation online, it becomes even more important to be able to exploit the human factor. If EB wants to improve (IMO) focusing less on the human factor and more on the formulaic response to a set of known variables won’t do it.
If that was the case, he could just build a computer program and program it how to respond in every situation. It comes down to what his goal is . . . improving the variance in his favor enough to be a profitable online player . . . or becoming a better poker player.
10-15 multi-tabling with a program to show villain stats or even hyper-tabling the small stakes tables with no stat program may eventually be profitable over the long long grind . . . but it will not make anyone a better poker player.
Les . . . I thought you said you were leaving the site a while back. What happened? Why don’t you do us all a favor and either focus on just posting your opinion . . . or find some other board with juvenile flamers like yourself who can sit around and talk about how clever they are for their inane posts.
DG
Gary, two questions:
1) “Do you think EB is going to recognize what a genius you are and ask you to be his best buddy?”
whats wrong with that, ive been trying to have eb ask me that for years.
2) whats VPIP mean?
and one comment:
1) everyone is overanalyzing poker with 4bet, vpip, flat call, cbet, bb’s,floating, blah blah blah. bottom line, no 2 villains play the same, so inevitably, a right play in one spot is the wrong play in the same spot with a different villain. villain is unknown variable notwithstanding statistics can reduce variance of predictability, so poker has no math guarantees unlike a game named blackjack.
FW…you told me to open the full tilt client and see for myself how tough the games are?? LOL FYI, online poker is how i make a living….playing on fulltilt poker and pokerstars. Please explain to me how for the past 18 months, i have paid the rent, bought a new car, eat at nice restaurants on a weekly basis, etc etc etc if the game is unbeatable? I also play at a higher limit than EB, so the 50nl game is QUITE a bit easier to beat than 100nl or 200nl.
I feel like i get dumber everytime i read people saying how hard the games are and how the only way to beat the game is just to cooler regs more than they cooler you. I hate to break it to you, but anything under 200nl is NOT 7 regs sitting around a table waiting to get the 1 fishes monies. If thats what you think, than you are probably also a fish.
I played on 50-200nl as well and the difference is game selection, the actual play is the same. Go play some lower stakes and you’ll clearly see that it is in fact all regs battling for 1 fish. Don’t you think EB would already be playing nl200 if the games were filled with people who stack off with 2 7 off suit in deep stacked pots
Enough already. EB is just not that good!
EB! Have you done the math, from the original. I am curious? It might be closer then most people think? I could do it but due to the fact I specialize in 6 max I am unfamiliar at what we would estimate the villains ranges for open shoving in a FR game. Once we come w/ a close and accurate range for our villain open shoving here, we could see how correct/incorrect the fold was.
Pokerstove says that he only has 42% equity against QQ+, AK. So how much money has to be in the pot to make the bet +EV? If there is 28 in the pot, EB has 40, and villian has 40. Would there have to be $60 in the pot + the 40 from the villian?
I think the only mistake was not going all in on the flop.
EB, why are you still grinding the micro’s? You have a huge bank roll. Why don’t you 2-3 table the $100 games, and get a coach? You can develop some new lines, learn how to read people better, and you can apply that to your live game. Charlestown poker tables are going live in a few months.
IMO EB is just ranting on his blog. He is focused on rakeback and anytime away from mass tables is losing money in his opinion.